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1964 Trabant 601 [P601] 
Class: Cars, Sedan — Model origin: 
![1964 Trabant 601 [P601]](i012446.jpg)
![[*]](/res/star.png){kind=small}
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Comments about this vehicle| Author | Message |
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◊ 2005-10-26 12:10 |
'Trabant' is not the maker, but a model name. (...and no need to write it in capital letters -- it wasn't that special .gif ";)") ) The correct name is VEB Sachsenring Trabant P601 (1963-89). |
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◊ 2005-10-26 12:53 |
So we have to rename the few other Trabant I guess? But was "VEB Sachsenring" also used as commercial name? Even if it is the company that builds the car, it does not mean that it is its make... (e.g. Renault Espace and Renault Avantime that were built by Matra) -- Last edit: 2005-10-26 12:55:11 |
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◊ 2005-10-26 13:52 |
Yes, it is the commercial name. The logo you find on the Trabants is an 'S' for 'Sachsenring'. 'VEB' means 'Volkseigener Betrieb' and translates as 'nationally owned enterprise'. We should keep that, too, as it is part of the official name, was used in the GDR and easily identifies the make as one from East-Germany. By the way, VEB Sachsenring was formerly Horch -- what a decline! |
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◊ 2005-10-26 17:22 |
Trabant P601 ((from VEB Sachsenring)) The brandname is Trabant, the modeltyp is P601 and the companyname is VEB Sachsenring) ((This is comparable with the Edsel Corsair from the Ford Company)) |
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◊ 2005-10-26 21:28 |
I don't agree. http://home.clara.net/peterfrost/trabant.html http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant_(PKW) ... and if you still don't believe download the manual: http://www.trabi.org/v2/downloads/handbuch601.zip Of course you may proove your point. You can convince me with an official vehicle registration certificate (Fahrzeugschein). This clearly states what the make is. As PSA was mentioned on another page with the same argument, I may give the information that in the vehicle registration certificate it either says Peugeot or Citroen and not PSA -- I owned cars of both makes. The mother "company" of the VEB Sachsenring was IFA. If I see a proof that Trabant is the maker, I am happy. If not, keep VEB Sachsenring as the maker. The same applies to VEB Waggonbau Bautzen and VEB Automobilwerk Eisenach -- I refrain from repeating myself on those pages. |
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◊ 2005-10-26 21:49 |
The problem is that on most of the sites the car is called "Trabant P601" rather than "Sachsenring Trabant P601". Including the site on clara.net: Below a photo of an older model there is "Sachsenring P240" and for the P601 there is "Trabant P601" Even in the manual, they do not mention the full name "Sachsenring Trabant P601"... And on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers for example, Trabant and Wartburg are listed. -- Last edit: 2005-10-26 22:08:53 |
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◊ 2005-10-26 22:40 |
Just like all those official 'Jeep' that are Willys MB. Have a closer look at pages 2, 3 and 4. Nice list, but I can spot a number of mistakes at first sight: Goggomobil, Vespa, ... And have you ever heard of an Australian "Nasenbaer Sports"?? Have a look in Google Images for 'Nasenbaer'.  |
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◊ 2005-10-26 23:00 |
Hmm I do not find anything that persuades me We can reclass the Trabant as Sachsenring for me, but some people (Ralph for example) do not agree, and I am not sure that one is more correct than the other. It would be nice to have official documents that clearly show if the name "Sachsenring" was used as a make or not. It is clear that it is the name of the company, but still not clear for me that it can be considered as the "commercial make". By the way, should the Yugo be listed as a Zastava then? -- Last edit: 2005-10-26 23:06:41 |
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◊ 2005-10-26 23:56 |
Hallo Alexander, ich glaube du sprichst deutsch ;-) du hast natürlich recht das der Hersteller Sachsenring war. Allerdings hiess das Produkt Trabant und firmierte auch unter dem Namen Trabant Typ 601. Eine Besonderheit des DDR-Sozialismus war halt, dass ein Hersteller oft nur ein Hauptprodukt hatte was die Sache ein wenig verfälscht. Wenn man aber jetzt im Falle Trabant den Hersteller noch davor schreiben will, müsste man das aber dann auch einheitlich bei anderen Fahrzeugen tun. Das wird dann allerdings recht unübersichtlich da Fahrzeugmarken recht beständig sind, Herstellerfirmierungen allerdings nicht. Das würde dann z.B. zu folgendem führen: Daimler-Benz Mercedes 180c (1950) Mercedes-Benz Mercedes 280SE (1982) Daimler-Chrysler Mercedes S500 (2001) Auch in der DDR änderten sich gelegentlich die benutzten Herstellernamen. Kombinat Sachsenring, VEB Sachsenring, IFA Fahrzeugwerke Sachsenring .. usw. -- Last edit: 2005-10-27 00:51:00 |
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◊ 2005-10-26 23:52 |
I noticed that. For the time being I am waiting for Ralph to show some proof. Of course those cars were always known as Trabant (or 'Trabi'), just like the Mini was always called Mini (in 1959 it was either Austin Seven or Morris Mini Minor). With those cars the name was at least official, unlike 'Käfer' (Beetle) or 'Ente' (German nickname for the Citroen 2CV). Those names are being used and after a while most people think they are official. Another good example is 'Mercedes' which was never a makers name, only once a car's name of the maker Daimler. Let's wait for that proof. As you mention it... .gif ":)") In some countries the Zastava Yugo were sold as Yugo, in others as Zastava. We could take the official name for make and model of a) the country of origin b) the country were the film is playing c) the country were the film has been made That leads to some problems: a) would lead to Kyrillic lettering for Russian cars (and the Zastavas, too, I think) b) might be a problem with fictional countries or those where this type of car was never sold (as in this film: BMW and Mercedes-Benz in the GDR) c) some films are being filmed in more than one country I guess we won't solve that tonight. -- Last edit: 2005-10-27 00:14:52 |
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◊ 2005-10-27 00:16 |
Oh, a bit of cross-posting, again. @Ralph Thanks for posting in German, but I think it would be nice to keep the others in this conversation. Therefore let me reply in English. You are right that it does not make life any easier, but I would always go for the official name. If it changed during the production run of a model, let us use the correct name for that car of that period. There are always official documents belonging to a car. They state, and I think this is identical all over the world, the name of the maker and the model. In this case, if the maker is Trabant as you suggest, then that is correct for IMCDb. If it is Sachsenring, or as I suppose (but so far cannot prove) VEB Sachsenring, then that is the maker and the model 'Trabant'. Those cars you give as an example: have never been named like that. All those three are Mercedes-Benz -- officially. Perhaps you can find an official vehicle registration certificate (Fahrzeugschein) and with that either convince me that you are right, or be convinced yourself of the opposite. Do you know any 'Trabi' drivers? -- Last edit: 2005-10-27 00:32:36 |
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◊ 2005-10-27 01:48 |
have never been named like that. All those three are Mercedes-Benz -- officially. [/quote] yes, the officially car brand is Mercedes-Benz and the company name is up-to-date Daimler-Chrysler AG and you can find this (Daimler-Chrysler AG) in the official vehicle registration certificate too. And i think the best name to listing cars is the Car-Brand-Name and not the Company-Name wen they are difference. unfortunately there were the BMC Mini, the Morris Mini, the Austin Mini, the Leyland Mini and now the Mini (from BMW Group) and the "Ente" was in germany all days a Citroen Ente and not a PSA Citroen Ente. back to the Trabant: in front and in the back by the Trabant we can read "Trabant" as the car brand ...and forgotten generously the "S" ;-) i think this is better because you can't see the word "IFA VEB Sachsenring Fahrzeugwerke" on the car outside. Ralph webmaster(a)bmw-02-club.de |
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◊ 2005-10-27 02:03 |
A final comment on this subject from me: (who just said "was about time!"? )I checked the official documents of the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (German registration agency). You can download the survey showing all cars from 1. January 2005. Link to "www.kba.de" On pages 89-91 we find the makes registered in Germany on that date. Guess what: no 'VEB' and no 'Trabant' The name is simply 'Sachsenring'. For the Wartburg the maker is 'Automobilwerk Eisenach' which could be abbreviated as 'AWE'. And while we are at it: No Yugo, only Zastava. Hope everone can live with that. PS: I changed the names once, now its your turn. |
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◊ 2005-10-27 09:44 |
That's an interesting document... I would say that you convinced me |
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◊ 2008-10-13 03:20 |
I see that on the front page, the car is listed as Trabant. I dug out the Fahrzeugbrief for my Trabbi (I do not have a scanner right now to send the proof if someone still wants to view it) and D1 Marke is listed as Trabant P 601L. I try to show the car from time to time (currently in Tucson). |
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