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1935 Rolls-Royce 20/25 h.p. Barker Saloon as Rolls-Royce Phantom II [GPG4]

1935 Rolls-Royce 20/25 h.p. [GPG4] in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Movie, 1989 IMDB

Class: Cars, Sedan — Model origin: UK

1935 Rolls-Royce 20/25 h.p. Barker Saloon as Rolls-Royce Phantom II [GPG4]

Position 01:19:09 [*][*] Minor action vehicle or used in only a short scene

Comments about this vehicle

AuthorMessage

antp BE

2004-08-05 21:59

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« Rolls-Royce Phantom two. 4.3 litre, 30 horsepower, six cylinder engine, with Stromberg downdraft carburetor, can go from zero to 100 kilometres an hour in 12.5 seconds. And I even like the color. »

junkman UK

2006-05-25 14:21

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Interestingly, the Phantom II had a 7.7 litre engine and no horsepower rating whatsoever. Rolls Royce merely stated engine performance as being 'sufficient'in those years. The carburetter was by Rolls-Royce itsself and was a twin jet updraft type.

-- Last edit: 2006-05-25 14:25:05

wickey SK

2007-01-08 00:18

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antp wrote « Rolls-Royce Phantom two. 4.3 litre, 30 horsepower, six cylinder engine, with Stromberg downdraft carburetor, can go from zero to 100 kilometres an hour in 12.5 seconds. And I even like the color. »

anyway I pretty doubt, that 30 HP will make with this elephant to 100 in 12,5 seconds :lol:

park-ward FR

2007-04-18 20:43

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The Sultan of Hatai was not a connoisseur ! It is a 20/25HP, chassis #GPG4 with Barker saloon body... It was owned in Spain, where this scene was shot. To set the record straight I'll change the soundtrack to "RRRolls-RRRoyce 20/25, 3.7 litre engine, 25 horsepower, six cylinder engine, with SU type carburetor, can go from zero to 100 kilometres per hour in ... a certain time. And I even like the colour." ;o)

antp BE

2007-04-18 22:34

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"Phantom II" sounds much better, I guess that they thought that nobody would notice the mistake :D

G-MANN UK

2007-09-26 14:36

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Did the Nazis ever use Rolls-Royces? It doesn't seem right for them to use a car built by one of their enemies.

G-MANN UK

2007-09-26 14:44

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wickey wrote
anyway I pretty doubt, that 30 HP will make with this elephant to 100 in 12,5 seconds :lol:


That was 100 kilometres per hour, not miles per hour, that's only 62mph. Even so, I doubt it could reach that speed anywhere near as quickly as 12 seconds, if at all!


-- Last edit: 2007-09-26 14:45:14

wickey SK

2007-09-26 15:08

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I thought about kilometres of course as well.. Anyway my opinion is about twice that time, maybe even more, as this car weights about 2 tons and it has 30 HP :)

wickey SK

2007-09-26 15:09

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G-MANN wrote Did the Nazis ever use Rolls-Royces? It doesn't seem right for them to use a car built by one of their enemies.

I pretty much doubt that - as they had Horch, big Mercedes' etc.

Sunbar UK

2007-09-26 15:18

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Could they not have commandeered or seized any vehicle they wanted to in countries they had invaded rather than waste resources transporting non-military vehicles from Germany? Would be seen as quite a 'prize' I would say?

-- Last edit: 2007-09-26 15:19:15 (G-MANN)

greybear EN

2007-09-26 15:38

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The horsepower rating given to British cars was based on a formula devised by the Royal Automobile Club (RAC) and was used for many years as a way of classifying British cars, especially for taxation purposes. An engine with an RAC rating of 16/65 would be regarded as being a 16hp engine (for taxation) with a brakehorsepower output of 65bhp. At the time the formula was devised it was reasonably accurate but technology soon made it obsolete from a technical point of view, even though it continued to be used as a basis for taxation. Thus the Rolls Royce's 30hp would be its rating, not its power output.

Britain was not the only country to use such a system - that's why one of France's most famous cars is known as the 2cv!

Ingo DE

2007-09-26 17:25

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@wickey and G-Mann: in the movie the bad guy (I actually don't remember his name) says to the Sultan something like that "A lot of wunderful, valuable things, given by the honourest and richest families in Europe" - it's a sideswipe. The Nazis have stolen all valuable property from the Jewish people, in the 30ies in Germany and Austria, during the war everywhere else.

This is the reason about the discussion, which exists still now, about a lot of artefacts and other valuable things with an unknown or hidden history in the 30ies and 40ies.

Anyways, a similar discussion is running about things with an unknown history in later times. So everywhere in the "Eastern Block"-countries the Soviets, especially the Red Army, picked up a lot of stuff not really legally.

But not only them alone. I've read, that the biggest raid of artefacts in history was made by the U.S.Army! It was a train, hidden in an Austrian tunnel, fully loaded with things, which the Nazis had stolen before from the Jewish people in Budapest.

-- Last edit: 2007-09-26 17:38:06

G-MANN UK

2007-09-26 17:40

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It's just that in this film the Nazis use that Rolls as a staff car (it's got the Nazi flags on it), even if they stole cars made by enemy countries, would they use them as staff cars? Wouldn't it have been seen as sacrilege?

Sunbar UK

2007-09-26 17:50

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I'm sure its more likely that they thought "in time we will own Rolls Royce once we invade Britain and control all of Europe".


-- Last edit: 2007-09-26 17:57:41 (G-MANN)

G-MANN UK

2007-09-26 18:00

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Yeah, they probably still admired Rolls-Royces even if they were British. But then I've heard of WWII veterans who wouldn't buy German or Japanese products (which rules out a lot of electronics).

Ingo DE

2007-09-26 22:26

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@G-Mann: during the war the Wehrmacht and SS has required cars and other things everywhere. So during the war in France after 1940 a lot of soldiers has driven Citroen CV 11, Peugeot 402 and so on. Under the German occupation Citroen and Peugeot have mainly produced cars, mainly trucks, for the Wehrmacht and SS.

But this has not too much to do with the situation in this movie, also not with my last posting. I mean, that this Rolls Royce was required/stolen from a Jewish family.

Also the "Indiana Jones"-movies are located in the pre-war-time, in 1937, as I remember. I've seen these movies several times.
O.k., it's a Hollywood-movie, so it's different to the historical facts. So you can see soldiers in the light brown uniforms of the "Afrika-Corps", also a VW Kübelwagen (which was destroyed by the british WW I tank afterwards) all these things haven't existed in 1937.

-- Last edit: 2007-09-26 22:28:38

robgeelen NL

2007-10-05 23:55

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Re: the question if small chassis RR were used by the Germans in the war: there was a report in the war in Autocar showing Goering being driven whilst visiting Paris, in a Convertible Rolls Royce. Autocar says it notes that the quality was appreciated by the Germans, however that Rolls royce Motors were very busy producing material to ensure Herr Goering would not be amon its post-war customers...

-- Last edit: 2007-10-20 22:04:11

93montero

2008-05-14 00:44

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I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments! I've also wondered about the Nazi's using Rolls-Royces especially in this scene (where the car is directly talked about).

AG4 PH

2008-05-22 09:23

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park-ward wrote The Sultan of Hatai was not a connoisseur ! It is a 20/25HP, chassis #GPG4 with Barker saloon body... It was owned in Spain, where this scene was shot. To set the record straight I'll change the soundtrack to "RRRolls-RRRoyce 20/25, 3.7 litre engine, 25 horsepower, six cylinder engine, with SU type carburetor, can go from zero to 100 kilometres per hour in ... a certain time. And I even like the colour." ;o)


Added information: The specs given by the Sultan...
"4.3 litre, 30 horsepower, six cylinder engine, with Stromberg downdraft carburetor"
is actually that of the newer Rolls-Royce 25/30.

-- Last edit: 2008-05-22 09:31:06

Skilleter EN

2010-05-14 14:33

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Very interesting debate here! Perhaps I can 'tidy up' some details. The 20/ 25 had 25 RAC horsepower but actually produced 78BHP. The old RAC formula for horsepower was not set arbitrarily. It is calculated as follows: HP = Cylinder diameter squared, times number of cylinders, divided by 2.5. In the early 1900's there were various assumptions, one of which was that 1,000ft/ minute piston speed was a practical maximum, and so there would be little need to consider piston stroke as a variable in the formula. However by the 1930's some engines worked at 2,750 ft/ second piston speed- this being due to increases in general efficiency, and notably increasing pressure due to use of much higher compression ratios. The two consquences were that, by the late 1920's, actual BHP far exceeded the RAC figure whilst engines of greatly differing capacity could have the same RAC rating. The latter was the consequence of engines with the same cylinder bore diameters having very different piston stroke. The power of RR engines is not a mystery. Rolls Royce continually developed their engines. Early 20's made 50BHP and late ones 57BHP. Very early 20/ 25's (1929/ 30) boasted 67BHP, then by 1931 it was 73BHP. The car illustrated here is a late 20/ 25 and would produce about 78BHP. The 25/ 30 which followed in 1936 managed 88BHP or thereabouts. As for performance, an early 20/ 25 made 67mph and 0- 50 mph in about 24 seconds, and late ones 73mph and 0- 50 in 20- 21 seconds. 25/ 30's- 78mph and 0- 50 in 16 seconds. The mighty Phantom 2 (138BHP) and Phantom 3 (165BHP) were fast cars that could reach 90+ mph, the P3 0- 50 being 12.5 seconds- about three seconds faster than a P2. The ultimate in refinement here was achieved by making the Phantom 2 and 3 engines huge (7.7 and 7.3 litres respectively) and thus they were required to do little real work when producing their power (which was modest for their size). However by 1938 the Wraith, successor to the 25/ 30, made 105HP and being much lighter than the P3 was not much slower on the road: it was a refined car and much better value. Much depended on coachwork- all these figures were for sports saloons like the car illustrated here. Limo's could be a lot slower. Note that 0- 50 is quoted. 0- 60mph acceleration was not usually recorded in the 1930's, since many ordinary family cars couldn't reach 60mph even when running 'flat out'! Just as important as power was torque. A 20/ 25 could pull away smoothly from a walking pace in third gear, but a Bentley with the same size engine could not. I used to own a Bentley the engine of which was developed from, though very different to, that of the small Rolls Royce. My 1936 car had the same size engine as a 25/ 30 Rolls, but produced much more power- up to 120 bhp. However you had to use the gearbox quite a lot and frequently needed to drop down into second gear, especially when driving in traffic- which was a bit of a nuisance since synchromesh was not given to second gear on these cars until 1938! For the record, a 3.6 litre Bentley made 92mph and 0- 50 in 13 seconds, a 4.25 litre achieved 96mph and 0- 50 in 10.6 seconds. Late 4.25 litre Bentleys had a 'geared up' top gear which actually made them slower- not much faster than early 3669cc cars- but these cars could be driven faster and longer on continental roads without running their bearings. So there you have it- the figures quoted here are about be best that the various RR and Bentley production cars of the 1930's could achieve.

-- Last edit: 2010-05-15 12:14:36

Skilleter EN

2010-05-14 15:51

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The question is raised above about the Germans using Rolls Royce cars. The Nazi's did not for a long time expect to go to war with Britain and had no particular 'hang up' about using British products- after all, they were rather partial to nice things! Obviously, of course, they usually rolled around in Mercedes and Horch vehicles- especially in big parades, and very fine cars they were. Interestingly, the earliest prototype Messerschmitt BF109 fighter aircraft used Rolls Royce Kestrel engines. Also, as late as the 1960's some BF 109's were still being used by the Spanish Airforce and some of these were borrowed to help make the big budget film 'Battle of Britain'. These Spanish 109's had been re- engined- with Rolls Royce Merlins! If you watch the film carefully you will see the exhaust ports mounted high up in the Merlin fashion. The Mercedes DB609 engine was 'inverted', with the ports much lower down. The Merlin was about 27 litres, the DB609 36 litres, but power output was similar. The DB609 was a fine engine but really too big for the Messerschmitt, which had not been designed for it- I suspect the smaller and lighter Merlin, that had quite a lot in common with the Kestrel, would have suited it rather better!!

-- Last edit: 2010-05-14 16:10:33

ingo DE

2010-05-14 20:13

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This Rolls Royce-model is from the 20ies, so some years before the Nazi's got the power over Germany ;)

Before the war there were just a very few Rolls Royce running in Germany in private hands. Really just a handfull, much less than in Switzerland for example. The very few real rich Germans -the years after the WWI were economic catastrophal, see the hyper-inflation in 1922/33- had mostly bought German cars, Mercedes and Horch. The import-taxes for foreign cars were extreme high (to protect the own industry, as in all other European countries, too) and were hardly pushed up after 1933. And the German currency was weak in the 20ies and 30ies, so all kind of imports were very expensive, compared with own products.

Skilleter EN

2010-05-15 11:36

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Hello Ingo. The car illustrated is actually from 1935. The 20/25 was developed from the Rolls Royce 20, which was introduced for 1922 and then subjected to continuous development until the Wraith arrived for 1938. As you say, the market for expensive cars was very small indeed. If I remember correctly, only some 80 'Grosser Marcedes' cars were built, and that over several years. It is remarkable that so many luxury models were introduced. In Britain few perple have even heard of Horch, yet they made Straight 8, V8 and V12 cylinder cars of the highest class. Rolls Royce cars were quite often seen in Germany because they appealed to wealthy British people who headed off each year on the 'Grand Tour'- they used the new, fast German Autobahns to get down to their ultimate destinations in Switzerland and Italy. That's why RR 'geared up' its cars in 1937/8. Drivers in those days often had little experience and just set off 'flat out', eventually running the engine bearings. This had nothing to do with quality of manufacture- it was due to the limits of contemporary technology. The white metal bearings of the day were nothing like as durable as modern ones and the oils available were very poor by our standards today. The big German cars had apparently modest performance. The enormously heavy 540K Mercedes coupe could manage about 95mph and 0- 50 in 10.5 seconds- about the same figures as a 4.25 litre Bentley- but it required a supercharger to do that and the supercharger could only be used for about two minutes at a time! However, and very importantly, along with other large German cars the Mercedes had much more sensible gearing for fast autobahns and could cruise all day at speeds that would 'burn out' the Bentley. Its what in Britain we call' horses for courses'. In the UK in those days there were hardly any 'dual- carrigeways', let alone autobahns/ motorways! Even the principle road to the north- the A1- would have been regarded as a country 'B' road today.

-- Last edit: 2010-05-15 12:21:10

Skilleter EN

2010-05-15 12:53

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On the subject of import taxes, these were very high in most countries during the '30's. 93% cars sold in Britain were also made here. The Mercedes 540K cost about £1,850 in Britian- quite a bit more than a Derby Bentley or 25/ 30 Rolls Royce! (£1,500- 1,600)- and a 2.6 litre Alfa Romeo would have set you back well over £2,000. The one exception was France. The franc was very weak and you could buy a Bugatti Type 57 for £1,200 or a nice Delage D8 for a similar amount. A V12 Hispano Suiza cost more than a P2 Rolls Royce (£3,000+)- but with 11.3 litres and about 8 miles per gallon that car was very nice but perhaps a tad too extravagent to sell in any country. A 1934 Hispano of this type was road tested in Britain and was amongst the very few cars of the day that could reach a genuine 100mph (just!). The example tested, with its enormous engine, was a light tourer that could barely accommodate four people. If you were a wealthy Mill owner in those Depression years I'm not sure how you could justify buying a thing like that when your workers took home about £2 a week in pay....and indeed only 78 of them found a home in eight years, sales in Britain being in single figures.

-- Last edit: 2011-03-09 00:22:59

ingo DE

2010-05-16 21:37

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@Skilleter: a good and actual example about "weak Franch Franc in the 30ies" and "high import taxes" - surely you'll have heard about that:
http://auto.de.msn.com/magazin/news/news.aspx?cp-documentid=151744490 :)

About the "Hitler's Autobahn" there are very much, too much rumours swirring around. The first and important fact it, that the Autobahn was older than the Nazi-regime. It was not founded by Hitler. The first plans were made in the 20ies, but not realized due the economical problems in that years.
The second point is, that the Nazi's have forced hardly the building of the Autobahn - but until the WWII (where it logically has stopped with the tourism of foreigners) nearly no Autobahn was really completed. Only a few routes were completed for some kilometers, many other were still under construction or just one line was ready (for example the route between Elbing (today Elblag) and Königsberg (today Kaliningrad).
Btw: today it starts as "Class C"-route, as you say in GB, and ends as a farmer's path somewhere close to the border between Poland and the "Oblast Kaliningrad".
Which I want to say with that is, that there weren't too many chances for rich people on their "Grand Tour" to going fast on the legendary "German Autobahn".
My second thought is, that I've meant in my former posting the amount of Rolls Royce, imported and sold in Germany (not the cars, used by foreign tourists).
In the pre-War-Germany the personal motorisation was much lower than in other countries like Britain, the USA and Switzerland. These super-luxoury-cars, you are mentioning, like "Großer Mercedes" or the 540-Series were unreachable und untouchable artefacts, which had no relation to the common people. For those just a 250 ccm-motorbike was the end of their dreams. Even little cars like a DKW, an Opel or a littler Adler were unrealistic dreams...

skilleter EN

2011-03-08 22:40

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Unfortunately I cannot read the article about the French Franc- Ingo's English is infinately better than my German! However, the fact remains that French luxury cars were remakable value in Britain. Amongst German luxury models the V8 Horsch cabriolet could be bought for £950, but only because the German government heavily subsidized it. Ingo's comments about autobahns are very interesting- I am aware that the National Socialist primary interest was in strategic routes to the East and west, so doubtless these received priority over the north- south routes favoured by those on the 'Grand Tour'. However, I have contemporary British road tests on the Mercedes 500K which points out the difference between motoring in Britain and in Germany. 'Motor' magazines road test in 1936 observed that the 500K was restricted to a maximum of about 60mph in 3rd gear, saying- 'This limitation is, in our view, rather unfortunate on English roads where there are many occasions when one wishes to accelerate rapidly to 75mph or more...' The point being made was that English roads then provided little opportunity for fast motoring and the driver would want to make the most of what few fast stretches of road there were! Whether on autobahns or not- or on the fast French Routes Nationale- it was far easier to drive for long distances at relatively high speed on the continent than it was in England. There was actually a debate in the German press about the need for cars that could travel all day at a steady 90kph (56mph), and the Mercedes 380 was designed precisely to do that. A british Bentley was a faster car than a 380 or 500K when those were being driven without use of their superchargers- but it could not safely sustain 80mph+ speeds for long periods of time. Rolls Royce did nearly all their road testing in France because suitable fast roads were simply not to be found in Britain and the police here made attempts at high speed motoring a misery!

-- Last edit: 2011-03-09 01:41:01

skilleter EN

2011-03-08 23:52

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Whilst it is true the German economy was in a dire state in the 1920's and early '30's, it greatly improved thereafter. The Nazi government did manage to very significantly regenerate the domestic economy and that was important to their plans for military rearmament also. The Opel company only sold 18- 29,000 cars per year up to 1933, but 89,000 in 1935, 99,000 in 1936 and well over 100,000 in both 1938 and 39. These late 30's figures were similar to those of Austin or Morris in Britain at that time. DKW was only established in 1928 and sold only 28,000 cars between then and 1935, yet thereafter their very successful twin cyliner F series model sold about 140,000 from 1936 through 1938. Amongst the luxury marques Horsch sold about 1,300 V8 850 series cars, 1935- 38, which may not sound a lot, but in England production of the larger Alvis and Lagonda models together was about that figure over the same period. In 1933 Mercedes Benz sold 8033 cars, but sold 27,000 or more annually from 1936. In Europe nobody could sell cars as expensive as the Rolls Royce and Bentley models in such large numbers (about 1,300 annually between the three types) but the German car industry in all price categories did extremely well between 1935 and 1938, and cars continued to be made in Germany in fair numbers even until 1942. In fact total sales were only 82,000 in 1933 but rose to more than 215,000 annually from 1936 through 38, so the German industry was by then selling as many private cars annually as were sold in Britain, where growth had been considerable but not nearly as fast as that... However, Ingo is right about the limited aspirations of the great majority of people- although that was true everywhere outside the USA. In Britain the motor industry was considered a great success during those years and the number of cars on the road here doubled in the 1930's decade- but only from 1 to 2 million- for a population of 45 million people!

-- Last edit: 2011-03-09 01:31:39

ingo DE

2011-03-09 10:06

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skilleter wrote Whilst it is true the German economy was in a dire state in the 1920's and early '30's, it greatly improved thereafter. The Nazi government did manage to very significantly regenerate the domestic economy and that was important to their plans for military rearmament also.



But it wasn't a solid based economy-regeneration, financed by state-bonds and debts. Germany was economicially closed, as less imports as possible. O.k., the export was powered strongly. The Reichsmark was not a real stabile currency, also not listed for free trading.

P.S. It's true, that in the 30ies the private motorisation was wanted and promoeted by the regime. Small motorbikes (less than 100 ccm) were tax- and license-free to ride. There was also a regulation, that car-owners could pay their car ransom of the yearly tax. With paying one time one specific amount, the car was tax-free for the rest of its life. This rule is still valid, so there are a handfull surviving cars until today.

-- Last edit: 2011-03-09 10:40:29

maxman CA

2013-05-10 04:16

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G-MANN wrote Did the Nazis ever use Rolls-Royces? It doesn't seem right for them to use a car built by one of their enemies.


Additional material mentions it was donated by an American traitor.

maxman CA

2013-05-12 08:29

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Why is it quantified "as Rolls-Royce Phantom II"? It isn't modified at all. A character misidentifying a car doesn't necessitate special titling. It's clearly not a Phantom II.

-- Last edit: 2013-05-20 03:06:01

Lateef NO

2013-06-06 16:54

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[Image: rr1.1.jpg] [Image: rr2.1.jpg]

maxman CA

2013-08-31 07:36

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That... doesn't answer my question.

ville FI

2014-03-02 23:43

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For the question asked couple times: "Did Nazi's use Rolls-Royces?" the correct answer is yes.

Unfortunately I could not find the picture by using Google, but I have for 100 percent sure seen that kind of picture. Was it in some book about Third Reich or WWII or just in internet that I can't remember. But I remember picture, because as fan of Rolls-Royce it did really catch my attention. Car was cabriolet. Might have been Phantom (one or two) or then smaller 20/25. it looked small with passengers. Definently not typical Ghost like my country's Fieldmarshal Mannerheim had before Hitler did gave Mercedes for him as birthday gift. Body looked light colored in black & white photo and could had been Kellner from Paris or then some British but for example not Gurney Nutting as it was not sleekest one in design and was slightly old fashioned look to compared some Sport Saloon versions from different coach builders of same era Royces.

In picture there was Wehrmacht Generals and it was timed around the capture of Paris. Someway I do not remember that Reichmarschall Göring would have been on that picture with this specific Rolls-Royce picture that I have seen (as someone did note that Göring had been seen on RR which I could considerer very possible as he liked cars and generally nice and expensive things...) but there was two and probably even three Generals: One for sure was Generalfeldmarschall Fedor von Bock, as in context it was stated that he was on way to go to look the occupied Paris with his staff.

Now we only need to find the picture to link here... But for sure, picture of Nazi's using Rolls-Royce definently is somewhere just waiting to be found.

Might even be possible to find from Bundesarchive collection at their webpage where is nowadays very nice collection of photos from Third Reich era...

-- Last edit: 2014-03-03 00:00:48

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