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1958 Bentley S1

1958 Bentley S1 in The Big Sleep, Movie, 1978 IMDB

Class: Cars, Sedan — Model origin: UK

1958 Bentley S1

[*][*] Minor action vehicle or used in only a short scene

Comments about this vehicle

AuthorMessage

wrenchhead US

2006-02-18 02:18

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on right

Junkman UK

2006-02-18 02:50

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Bentley SII

stronghold EN

2006-02-18 08:28

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[Image: bigsleep8jn4.1478.jpg] [Image: bigsleep30wk4.6323.jpg] [Image: bigsleep51pa0.9875.jpg] [Image: bigsleep52tl0.1050.jpg] [Image: bigsleep58sa5.4006.jpg]

-- Last edit: 2007-05-14 11:49:00

antp BE

2006-02-18 10:18

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"SII" ? :??: Same as the few S2 already listed or is it another model?

wrenchhead US

2006-02-18 17:53

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Quote "SII" ? :??: Same as the few S2 already listed or is it another model?


It appears to be the same car! I find references to both S2 and SII for this car, see: http://www.darkforce.com/royce/benss2.htm
Which should we use.

-- Last edit: 2006-02-18 17:54:39

antp BE

2006-02-18 17:55

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S2 seems more common... and is what we used until now

stronghold EN

2006-02-18 18:03

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Can we add a separate page for the Bristol (It maybe only a one-star car ...but pretty rare.!) .??

-- Last edit: 2006-02-18 18:03:50

antp BE

2006-02-18 18:09

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It should get its own page, yes.

wrenchhead, is there a better view of the Bristol, or should we use the same pic than for the Bentley?

juergensmuda DE

2006-03-07 22:07

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S2 is right (if it is an S2 and not an S1 which is identical except for the engine; S2 = V8 engine, S1 = straight 6 engine ). Bentleys are used to be namend by using arab digits (S3, T2) except for the Mark VI. Rolls-Royces are used to be namend by using roman (?)digits, i.e. Silver Cloud III, Phantom VI etc.

I think as S2 and S1 Bentleys, and Silver Cloud I and Silver Cloud II cannot NOT and NEVER be identified by their body, they all should be re-namend here as Bentley "S-type" or "Rolls-ROyce Silver Cloud" - Only the Bentley S3 and the Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud III can be distinguished by their double headlights!!

Alexander DE

2006-03-08 00:19

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juergensmuda wrote
I think as S2 and S1 Bentleys, and Silver Cloud I and Silver Cloud II cannot NOT and NEVER be identified by their body, ...

Yes, they can. :)
The crease line is closer above the front wheel arch on the S1 model -- unless it is a special bodied version, of course.

Junkman UK

2006-03-08 01:28

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Also, the headlights are different from the RR SI to SII or Bentley S1 to S2. On the former more cylindrical bezels were used to accommodate the Lucas units with almost flat headlight lenses, whereas the latter have the equivalent to US sealed beam headlights with more rounded bezels and the lights themselves are more convex. Of course this works only for cars that remained in Europe, since US-export versions had the sealed beams all along.
Also, this body type of the SI and SII (sorry, S1 and S2) is commonly referred to as 'Standard Steel Saloon' and I suggest to introduce this to IMCDB in order to differentiate them from the special bodied cars such as Hooper Empress and James Young Continental or others.

wrenchhead US

2006-03-08 02:53

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antp wrote It should get its own page, yes.

wrenchhead, is there a better view of the Bristol, or should we use the same pic than for the Bentley?


I gave it its own page and put the only other pics available as comments. At least you can see a little of the front. /vehicle_24817-Bristol-408-1964.html

-- Last edit: 2006-03-08 04:55:10

juergensmuda DE

2006-03-11 19:52

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Alexander, I am sorry, but that's nonsens. You can't! Just go and ask for example my good old friend Klaus Rossfeldt whose homepage www.rrab.com you've mentioned elsewhere here, or buy one of his books...

I have owned such cars for years including the S1. I am also the the Chairman of TheOtherClub for Rolls-Royce and Bentley owners and the Press Officer of the German Section of the RREC. You should not discuss with me things I obviously do know better - and from daily live!

The only remaining item outside on S1/S2 ars (Silver Cloud I/Silver Cloud II) to see which model it is is the "snow trap" grill (of course, you know what this is...) which is painted black on S2 cars instead of a blank metal, and a very slightly lowered radiator - but you would must have eagle eyes to see such details here from distance. Even the headlamps bezels are the same, Junkman...

-- Last edit: 2006-03-11 20:02:53

antp BE

2006-03-11 20:04

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So we should rename all the S1 & S2 to S-Type?

juergensmuda DE

2006-03-11 20:24

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Yes, that would be the only way to give correct information. All Bentley S1/S2 must be only "S-Type" and all Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud I and II must be only "Silver Cloud" (All, except Bentley S3 and Rolls-Royce Silver Cloud III which can be identified by their double headlamps)everything else is wrong.

-- Last edit: 2006-03-11 20:26:46

antp BE

2006-03-11 20:45

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Well, some may be identified for sure as 1 or 2 with their license plate or by their owner. Also in some case they can be identified by other means, I think to these ones for example:
/vehicle.php?id=22684
/vehicle.php?id=10074

-- Last edit: 2006-03-11 20:50:27

Alexander DE

2006-03-12 22:40

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juergensmuda wrote ... but that's nonsens. ... You should not discuss with me things I obviously do know better - and from daily live!


Jürgen, I would appreciate if you keep the dignified manner of the cars, for which you are a self-appointed expert, when writing, too.

Please do me and all the other interested readers the favour and prove your point. It should not be that difficult. Neither I nor most of the others have the time to pester your friend with questions you could very simply answer.

I would be very interested to learn why the mentioned crease line differs between models. Perhaps you are willing to share your knowledge. Thank you for your consideration.

wrenchhead US

2006-03-12 23:35

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Amen, there is a difference between a discussion and a lecture!

juergensmuda DE

2006-03-13 22:21

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Alexander, ich habe keine Ahnung wo Sie einen Unterschied in der Karosse zwischen S1/S2 sehen wollen. Es gibt keinen. Aber, ich will Ihnen zu Gute halten, dass Sie möglicherweise irgendeinen Coachbuilt Bentley gesehen und verglichen haben und daher darauf so vehement aber unnötig beharren wollen. Der gleiche Unsinn, wie jener, über den Junkman berichtet: Selbst die Teilenummern "seiner" Scheinwerferblenden sind identisch. Wie auch immer, wenn Sie beginnen sich mit mir über Dinge zu streiten, die sie so offensichtlich gar nicht kennen, so sollten Sie bitte zumindest Ihren anmaßenden Ton unterlassen. Ich bezweifle, dass wir in der gleichen Liga spielen, deshalb sollten Sie weitere Reaktionen von mir auch nicht ernsthaft erwarten wollen.

-- Last edit: 2006-03-13 22:22:07

wrenchhead US

2006-03-13 23:10

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Pompus pedantry.

antp BE

2006-03-13 23:22

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I am not sure to understand the whole message correctly since I have to use an online translator (I do not understand German at all), but juergensmuda you could be a little more polite and "diplomatic" (not sure of these translations... :D) :/

wickey SK

2006-03-14 00:10

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well i will try to translate it a bit:

Alexander I don't know where you want to see the difference in body between sS1/S2. There is none. I assume that you probably saw and compared it with some coachbuilt Bentley and from that you so vehemently insisted on this.
This is the same nonsense as what Junkman reported: even the part numbers of "his" light lenses are the same.
If you start to argue with me about this thing you obviously don't know about, do not use that priggish tone. I doubt that we play in the same league, so don't expect any more thoughtful reactions from me.

-- Last edit: 2006-03-14 00:34:07

wickey SK

2006-03-14 00:11

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sorry for not 100% accurate translation - I am not native speaker of any of these languages. But I think, I spotted the meaning right. So please guys, just calm down - this site is just about identifying vehicles, not about arguing... PEACE :)

wrenchhead US

2006-03-14 00:45

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wickey wrote this site is just about identifying vehicles, not about arguing... PEACE :)


Thanks wickey, that needed to be said. :king:


-- Last edit: 2006-03-14 00:45:28

Junkman UK

2006-03-14 04:56

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This is the third Silver Cloud we raced at Standlake Arena at the heavy metal classic. The car owner, a good friend of mine, operates one of the largest Rolls Royce scrapyards in the UK. We dismantle Silver Clouds and Bentely S-types on a regular basis. I thus do consider myself as somebody who does have hand-on experience with these cars and is not only a paper tiger and bench racer.

We found out, that altogether three headlight arrangements were used on the SI-SII and S1-S2 standard steel saloons:

1. Sealed beam units for Export USA, used for both series.
2. Lucas units with rather flat headlight glasses and more cilindrical bezels used mainly on SI and S1.
3. Generic European 'Bilux' style headlamp inserts by Bosch, Hella, S.E.V Marchal or Cibie with the same bezels as used on the export USA models, but in England mainly used on SII and S2 models. Lucas units became illegal in mainland Europe somewhen in the late 50s - early 60s when they switched to assymetrical low beam, hence the change.

The diameter of the Lucas units is slightly larger than the standard 7 1/4 inch diameter of the sealed beam or Bilux headlamp inserts.

The -albeit subtle- different shapes can be seen in the following pics:

1. rounded bezel:
http://luxurycarphotos.tripod.com/56rollssilvercloud.jpg

2. cylindrical bezel:
http://luxurycarphotos.tripod.com/58rollssilvercloud.jpg

3. Export USA sealed beam (same bezel as 1.):
http://luxurycarphotos.tripod.com/60rollssilvercloudIIconvertible.jpg

Why this minute detail escapes the knowledge of most self declared Rolls Royce experts is a phenomenon that never ceases to amaze me. Anyway, as we all experience very clearly on this website, the automotive field is too vast to know everything. I learn something new every day of which I thought I knew all about. There is no room for arrogance or know-all manner on this site. If you have a point to prove, prove it - calling on other self declared expert is no proof.

And juergensmuda, if you pass me your details, I'll send you a sample of each, so you can compare them yourself side by side. Maybe that will make you stop hollering around here.

-- Last edit: 2006-03-14 09:56:23

antp BE

2006-03-14 09:56

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I edited your post because the link directly pasted in the page was a little too wide ;)

wickey SK

2006-03-14 16:35

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Junkman wrote This is the third Silver Cloud we raced at Standlake Arena at the heavy metal classic.

now I understand your nickname :D - this one obviously lost his headlights somewhere on the road :D

juergensmuda DE

2006-03-15 17:06

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Wickey, thank you very much for translating my speech. There is only one little error occured. I did not mention headlamp inserts but headlamp crome surrounds - which are identical on S1/S2. The headlamp INSERTS weren't , of course, and here is junkman right, not always the same. But today, fifty years later if you begin to count the years beginning with the introduction of the S1/SC1 in 1955, we cannot await that headlamp lenses/inserts have remained the same since the day of delivery of the car.

But just to react to the "paper tiger" or "bench racer". I have driven and kept Rolls-Royces and Bentleys since I got my licence... actually, I never had any other make of car, except for one Ferrari Mondial, Porsche 911, Mercedes etc... and even during the years I didn't have a car because I was too young to get a licence: we always had Rolls-Royces and Bentleys available since all my life.... So I do not accept to be called a "self-appointed expert" but I learned from life

What Alexander told remains wrong: the body, and I trust that junkman will confirm from his "daily hands-on-experience", are definitely the same on S1/S2. the is no different creaseline between both models. he can repeat it as often as he likes, but there is no difference. It seems to me like a discussion about whether the sky is always green or not. The only way to see whether it is a S2 or an S1 model is: check the dashbord - the S2 does have big black air-oulets on the dashboard top, which the S1 does not have, and a seperated clock left to the ignition-box. Further the snow trap is painted black (what you could never indentify in the pictures here, which is blank metal chrome on the S1). Means, if you are are unable to have a look into the car to check the dashboard arragenements or your are unable to open the bonnet to check whether she does have a straight-six or a vee-8 engine you will never never never be sure which model it is.... That's why I suggested all the S1/S2 and SC1/SC2 (except some coachbuilt cars which were only available on S1 or S2 chassis) should be re-namend S-Type or Silver Cloud as every other way is not leading to have a correct database. I have since I found these pages many errors corrected, even quite a few made by Alexander hence I do not accept his tone he wrote to me in sheer ignorance. Anyway, whish you all much fun here.

Juergen



-- Last edit: 2006-03-19 12:18:22

robgeelen NL

2007-05-14 21:59

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I guess nobody can be right all the time, and that applies to both our friends. Lets keep it friendly here. Personally I would prefer the denomination Bentley S1/2 and Silver Cloud I/II for cars which cannot be identified as one or the other for sure.
As for all these headlights. I've been in the RREC since 1977, and have been a RREC judge during the Annual Rally. All variations exist, people will build in all sorts of lamps and other features, because spares change, due to availibility or legal requirements or personal preference. Most of the time the quality of the pictures here is just not good enough to be sure...

stronghold EN

2007-05-15 13:59

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The enquiry is complete
The vehicle details for 464 PE are:

Date of Liability 03 01 1997
Date of First Registration 07 05 1958
Year of Manufacture Not Available
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 4887CC
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour GREY
Vehicle Type Approval null

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