Comments about this vehicle

Author	Message
dsl ◊ 2020-09-03 23:31	We've identified this vehicle using the details you provided LEYLAND FREIGHTER OTHERS 1927 Registration number: KW 1961 Body type: S/D Bus/Coach Colour: Red And Cream Date of first registration: July 1927 "Leyland Lion KW 1961 entered service in 1927 with the Blythe and Berwick Bus Company which then merged with Harrogate & District Road Car Company along with Premier Transport of Keighley to form the West Yorkshire Road Car Company in early 1928. The Blythe and Berwick company was a combination of charabanc operations and a parcel delivery service which had been set up before WW1, and began operating bus services around the Bradford area from 1924. The bus was withdrawn in late 1932 and sold to Jersey Motor Transport and remained in use until 1959; it finished up being housed at the East Anglia transport museum (Lowestoft) though the owner eventually offered it to the Aire Valley Transport Group for further restoration in 2010." from here
Sunbar ◊ 2020-09-05 19:17	Lion PLSC3 https://www.classicbuses.co.uk/1961.html#1961 https://www.flickr.com/photos/buses-international/5985747620
dsl ◊ 2020-09-05 21:41	"Blythe & Berwick, Bradford > Jersey 51, Lion PLSC3 {45974} / Leyland B31F (later B35F) 7/27, KW 1961, (was J 7278 when in Jersey 1932-58) Ken Blacker, Lowestoft. To David Hudson & Alex Lawson, Bradford 2010, for complete restoration. Restoration completed 2017." Probably here, and 1959 photo in Southend
dsl ◊ 2020-12-23 14:40	Ep 1.07 (2020 Xmas special)
dsl ◊ 2021-10-27 23:55	Ep 2.06
dsl ◊ 2022-09-18 21:47	Ep 3.01 Only 12 mph... ... must be a slowcoach (one of my mum's favourite expressions when we were dawdling nippers).
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 12:25	Heavy goods vehicles speed limit debate, House of Commons 1951. “The Road Traffic Act, 1930, as amended by other enactments, lays down that goods vehicles with an unladen weight in excess of three tons are restricted to a maximum speed of 20 miles an hour, whilst those of three tons and under are permitted to travel up to 30 miles an hour. The object of this debate, for which I think there is all-party approval, is to invite the Minister to make an order as soon as may be raising the permitted speed limit of all heavy commercial vehicles, except those fitted with solid tyres or drawing a separate trailer, to the general limit of 30 miles an hour.” Iirc buses were permitted to reach 30mph, but that the difference in speed limit for any vehicle with solid tyres was that they were restricted to 12mph. Perhaps the Leyland Lion was originally supplied on solids? Perhaps they just got it wrong? 1923 Leyland Lion,legal lettering says 12mph, tyres are solids. https://autocart.biz/leyland-lion/ http://www.svasweb.org/2017/01/16/white-rose-for-shuttleworth/ -- Last edit: 2022-09-19 13:21:12
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 15:43	Further to above, I have spent some time looking at 1920s/30s bus pictures, and found several quite modern looking late 20s and early 30s buses shod with pneumatic tyres but lettered for 12mph. Strange.
Baube ◊ 2022-09-19 15:52	could it depend of the region ?
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 16:28	Baube wrote could it depend of the region ? No, unless Wales or Scotland in some cases. The Acts that control such things are passed by Parliament, and such as this subject are nationally applicable. Here is the Schedule of Speed limits attached to the Road Traffic Act 1930. Ex Wikipedia. FIRST SCHEDULE Limits of Speed. Class of Vehicle. I Maximum Speed—Miles per Hour. 1. Passenger Vehicles, that is to say vehicles constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects :— (1) If all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres and the vehicle is not drawing a trailer— (a) if the vehicle is adapted to carry not more than seven passengers, exclusive of the driver and is not a heavy motor car or an invalid carriage No limit. (b) if the vehicle is a heavy motor car or is adapted to carry more than seven passengers, exclusive of the driver 30 (2) In any other case, including invalid carriages 20 2. Goods Vehicles, that is to say vehicles constructed or adapted for use for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description:— (1) When not drawing a trailer— (a) Motor cars, if all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres; and (b) Heavy motor cars, constructed or adapted for the conveyance of horses and their attendants and used solely for that purpose, if all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres 30 (c) (i) Motor cars, if all the wheels are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres; and (ii) Heavy motor cars, if all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres 20 (d) Heavy motor cars, if all the wheels are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 16 (2) When drawing a trailer— (a) if all the wheels both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer are fitted with pneumatic tyres, or if the trailer is attached to the drawing vehicle by partial superimposition in such manner as to cause a substantial part of the weight to be borne by the vehicle and all the wheels both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 16 (b) if all the wheels both of the drawing vehicle and of the trailer are not fitted with pneumatic tyres but are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 8 (3) In any other case 5 3. Locomotives and motor tractors :— (1) Heavy locomotives— (a) Within any city, town or village - 3 (b) Elsewhere 5 (2) Light locomotives— (a) When not drawing a trailer or not drawing more than two trailers, if all the wheels both of the locomotive and of any trailer drawn by it are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 8 (b) In any other case 5 (3) Motor tractors— (a) When not drawing a trailer, if all the wheels of the tractor are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 16 (b) When drawing a trailer, if all the wheels both of the tractor and of any trailer drawn by it are fitted with soft or elastic tyres 8 (c) In any other case 5 -- Last edit: 2022-09-19 16:44:18
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 16:38	Ex Wikipedia. Early years The first speed limits in the United Kingdom were set by a series of restrictive Locomotive Acts (in 1861, 1865 and 1878). The 1861 Act introduced a 10 mph (16 km/h) limit (powered passenger vehicles were then termed "light locomotives"). The 1865 'Red Flag Act' reduced the speed limit to 4 mph (6 km/h) in the country and 2 mph (3 km/h) in towns and required a man with a red flag or lantern to walk 60 yards (50 m) ahead of each vehicle, and warn horse riders and horse drawn traffic of the approach of a self-propelled machine. The 1878 Act removed the need for the flag[33] and reduced the distance of the escort to 20 yards (20 m).[34] Following intense advocacy by motor vehicle enthusiasts, including Harry J. Lawson of the Daimler Company the most restrictive parts of the acts were lifted by the Locomotives on Highways Act 1896.[35] which raised the speed limit to 14 mph (23 km/h) and removed the need for the escort.[36] A celebratory run from London to Brighton was held soon after the act was passed and has been commemorated each year since 1927 by the London to Brighton Veteran Car Run.[36] 30 mph (48 km/h) repeater sign used to remind drivers of the speed limit (on a road without street lighting) The speed limit for motor cars was raised to 20 mph (32 km/h) by the Motor Car Act 1903 which stood until 1 January 1931 when all speed limits for cars and motorcycles were abolished under the Road Traffic Act 1930.[37] Lord Buckmaster's opinion at the time was that the speed limit was removed because "the existing speed limit was so universally disobeyed that its maintenance brought the law into contempt".[38] Between 1930 and 1935 the number of annual road fatalities dropped from 7,305 to 6,502.[n 7] The same act also introduced a 30 mph (48 km/h) speed limits for UK coach services, UK bus services and most HGVs.[39] Buses were not necessarily fitted with speedometers at this stage.[40] A 'Road Traffic (Speedometer) Bill' was debated in 1933 relating only to vehicles to which current speed limits applied.[41] The Road Traffic Act 1934, created by Leslie Hore-Belisha, the then Minister of Transport, introduced a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) in built-up areas for cars and motorcycles which came into effect on 18 March 1935.[42] The definition of a built-up area was based on the presence of street lighting,[43] which had previously been mandated by the Public Health Act 1875.[44] The re-introduction of a speed limit for cars was in response to concern at increased road casualties.[11] Between 1935 and 1940 the number of annual road fatalities increased from 6,502 to 8,609.[n 7] Speedometers were made compulsory for new cars in 1937.[45] -- Last edit: 2022-09-19 17:20:28
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 17:18	So, where the 12 mph came from, and what use it was, is anyone’s guess! -- Last edit: 2022-09-19 17:19:32
dsl ◊ 2022-09-19 17:25	Maybe it's not about the bus itself, but a more modern stipulation about how old commercials can be driven - perhaps a usage regulation or licence loophole, MOT or similar exemption, or about who can drive them under eligible driving licence categories? Maybe even an insurance ruling for antique PSVs??
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 17:33	^ If so, why put it on the legal lettering on the vehicle? I have no knowledge of such legislation applied to cars.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 18:22	No mention of limits for old vehicles here: - https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Baube ◊ 2022-09-19 18:49	could it just be inaccurate marking from the prop crew ?
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 19:24	In my experience the prop crew would not be allowed anywhere near such a treasure by its owners.
Baube ◊ 2022-09-19 19:37	and according to them it could make it to 25 so the 12 mph thing is not related to mechanic either... unless they voluntarily go only up to 12 mph to preserve it... as you can guess by now, i'm out of ideas...
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-19 19:50	Unfortunately my friend who preserves buses has moved away so I’m no longer in contact. The next time I go to the local society, I’ll try to find out. If you look at the stuff I posted above you’ll see that such low limits tend to be ignored anyway.
Sunbar ◊ 2022-09-20 12:00	As you would expect there is a lot of discussion of speed limits for goods vehicles and buses in the Commercial Motor Archive, therefore analysing them in detail would take some time. However just (edit:) a couple of comments in 1921 and 1922 about the disregard of speed limits and police not enforcing them, suggests a speed limit of 12mph for buses was possibly already in effect. March 1921. "A permitted speed of 16 m.p.h. is necessary in the case of all public service vehicles, It strikes us as a grievous pity that-the new Motor Act cannot be prepared for consideration during the present Session of Parliament, because what is most urgently needed is a revision of the present limit of 12 m.p.h., which acts repressively upon passenger and goods transport." January 1922. "Now that the motor coach has become such a popular form of transport amongst all classes of passengers, its safety at speeds up to 20 m.p.h. has been realized to the full. Few, if any, passengers would enjoy travelling in a motor coach if its maximum speed were limited to 12 m.p.h. " -- Last edit: 2022-09-20 12:09:30
Sunbar ◊ 2022-09-20 12:59	continued.. August 1927 "the proposed legal limits which are set forth in the draft Road Traffic Bill, name 20 m.p.h. as the maximum for pneumatic-tyred coaches and buses of the lighter types. That proposed limit, as now set forth in the draft, is ridiculous. Its attempted enforcement must lead to a state of highway congestion and obstruction not as yet conceived." November 1931 "Goods vehicles generally: An increase (for those fitted with pneumatic tyres) from 20 m.p.h. for heavy motorcars and 30 m.p.h. for motorcars, to 35 m.p.h. In the case of a pneumatic-tyred vehicle drawing a trailer on pneumatics, and of a heavy motorcar with soft or elastic tyres, the increase suggested is from 16 m.p.h. to 20 m.p.h. Coaches and buses: The suggested increase is from 30 m.p.h. to 35 m.p.h., the latter being recommended by the Royal Commission on Transport." Overall however it was generally accepted that speed limits were completely ignored by drivers and the police were unable to enforce them almost completely, other than by a very rare speed traps being used. Any slight increase in permitted speeds was ineffective since traffic was already travelling significantly faster and did not recognise how a lower speed was to be enforced. -- Last edit: 2022-09-20 13:18:34
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2022-09-20 15:26	^ Good stuff, and a possible answer. I have clear recollection of hgvs showing “20” plates, and of my Dad’s Morris Ten not being able to overtake on winding A roads. The road north out of Lichfield was a particular example, and any hills would have the trucks changing down the box and Dad wishing he had a Jag Mk7!
dsl ◊ 2022-10-23 03:52	The Daimler (flat-bed truck converted from charabanc) has something similarly inconspicuously placed with 20 mph instead.
dsl ◊ 2023-10-06 20:53	Hello again! Ep 4.01
dsl ◊ 2023-10-14 22:10	Ep 4.02
dsl ◊ 2023-11-04 00:16	Ep 4.05

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1927 Leyland Lion PLSC3

1927 Leyland Lion PLSC3 in All Creatures Great and Small, TV Series, 2020-2024 Ep. 1.01+

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